Posted by agilebasenji on January 22, 2003 at 23:49:07:
In Reply to: Weave pole frustration... posted by Chelle on January 21, 2003 at 11:25:34:
You know, I don't think there is anyone on this earth who has tried more different methods to teach one little dog to weave than I have. (And I'm not really bragging about that.) I've used the channel (what your school is using) with and without guide wires, straight line weaves also with and without guide wires, slant poles and clicker training. I've not used but also researched using gates and quickly scrapped back chaining (not even sure if I really used it or not). I've used some of these methods simultaneously and some in the same time frame, but not at the exact same time. (I used the slant poles at home and the channel in class. I also used the slant poles and clicked for the behavior I wanted.)
:OK, teh school I am going to teaches the weave poles spread apart and then slowly pushes them together to get the dogs used to wiggling through them.
This is the channel method and many if not most places teach the weaves using this method either with or without guide wires.
:I understand this is the hardest to teach, so I'm trying to be patient without getting either of us frustrated, but we are the worst in the class.
Been there. And, really, it's okay. Dogs learn different things at different rates. Some dogs have lots of problems with the teeter and other will have problems jumping. Generally an individual dog will not be the worst at everything Could be. Your the one who knows your dog best, trust yourself and your dog. :Am I confusing her by having both? Maybe. Like I stated earlier, I used slant poles at home and channel in class. I don't think this confused my dog, but what are YOU seeing in your dog? If I were you and I really thought the different methods were confusing my dog, I'd explain to the teachers what you're seeing and how you'd like to handle the situation. Not weaving in class until the poles are in a straight line should be an option for you. If your trainers are not willing to listen to you, get different trainers. Yes. No "no". I sometimes use "phooey", but mostly I just turn around and go back to the begining. :I'm not touching her to get her through it, but I am guiding her with my hand. Eventually I'll use more subtle hand signals, but for now I just want her to get used to the motion. I see people doing this in the Novice levels. I think as long as you are not physically blocking the dog, you're okay even in competition although hopefully you'll be beyond that point before you compete. Please do not resort to doing that awful hip/leg motion that I've seen novices do. (This is physically blocking the dog by moving the leg from the hip going in/out in/out. A visual works better than my description.) :Tips, tricks, ideas? Also, is there any way to teach this with a clicker to make it more clear? I know she'd pull out of the sequence to get a treat if I clicked every turn, yet, I could do one and slowly work up? I tried training weaves with the clicker method and did not have much luck training a dog who had never seen the weaves to weave. (I couldn't every get her to the 3rd pole. She'd do the first one then run to me for the treats without ever even looking at pole 3.) Although I did have better success using a combo of slant, clicker and targetting. And currently I'm having great success using the clicker to improve my current dog's performance, mostly with speeding up. I do have an interesting article on clicker training the weaves. If you tell me your email addy, I'll send it to you. I did not write it and so don't feel comfortable posting it in a public forum. However I do have some helpful tips that I just wrote a 2 weeks ago for someone else. The person I wrote this for just finished AKC novice and is now in open. She was/is having problems qualifying mostly due to being way over time. So she's a little farther along than you are, but I'll copy and post the weave info that was in my post and let you see if you can glean any useful info. You may want it later. As far as I can tell, training the weaves consist of 3 different components. In no particular order: entry into the weaves, doing the weaves, and speeding up the weaves. Now, if you're lucky you won't have problems with the speed issue, but I'm guessing you will since your dog is (potentially) already stressing about them. But remember that you can only train for one thing at a time so before you train, make sure you have clear goals for that session. If you are working on entry, don't ask the dog to do all 12 poles. Doing perfect weaves tonight is NOT specific enough. And of course be willing to edit your goals based on how your dog is doing at that moment. Can I ask what breed you are working with? If you are dealing with a toy breed, the weaves can be especially difficult as each pole can look like telephone poles stuck almost randomly in the ground, instead of related items. For now, I'll assume this is not the issue. Weaves (and oh boy could I go on and on and on about this obstacle! But I'll tell you the one exercise that really seemed to really work for us and we still use.) Get a knowledgeable "spotter" and ask that person to click anytime they see the dog speeding up. Step in and reward the dog IMMEDIATELY regardless of where she is in the weaves. Click ends the behavior, so she will stop weaving, tell her "okay" and let her leave the weaves from wherever she is. That's okay. She weaves until (a) she gets to the end or (b) she hears a click which won't happen in the ring. I had a really hard time with not making (asking?) Digital to finish the weaves, but this has worked. Pay close attention to fast enteries into the weaves. There are 3 parts to this clicker training Quantity, Quality, and timing. Have good treats, be generous, and be quick. End session with a jackpot and celebration. Run silly - generally if the neighbors aren't worried about your sanity, you're not doing it right And geesh, if you made it this far - GOOD LUCK! :-)
:In order to try to get better I bought a set of weave poles (not very expensive, but the idea's there). She actually does them at home, not fast, but does it. Is she having trouble making the transition from the straight line at home to the offset ones in class?
:I can't really have the school change theirs. Do I just not do it in class until it's a straight line?
:Also, are there any "no-nos" when teaching a dog to go through a straight line?
My personal problem with the channel method is that I feel my dog was not learning the footwork necessary for weaving. I think the slant poles helped him with this. Try 'em see what you think.
Okay here's what I wrote to my friend (I'm just pasting the weave info so I may repeat myself and it might seem disjointed):
I will assume a few things. One is that you know something about clicker training. (If you're not sure, get Morgan Spector's book Clicker Training for Competitive Obedience. EXCELLENT book) The other is that you know a bit about targetting. I will also assume you have 3 jumps (my first jumps were 2 cinder blocks and a broom handle. This is a really cheap way to do jumps - 6 cinder blocks and some PVC) and weaves. I had great success with the slant weaves - they are realitively easy to make. (http://www.cleanrun.com/pages.cfm?ID=50#TRAIN) PVC is cheap and my PVC cutter was around $20 or so.
Ideally in clicker training you want the dog to succeed about 80-90% of the time. If she is only getting it 50% of the time, lower your expectations. If she's getting it 100%, raise it.
